Dao De Jing
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Verse Seventy Nine


From: jimclatfelter
Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009

Verse Seventy Nine
Witter Bynner, 1944

If terms to end a quarrel leave bad feeling,
What good are they?
So a sensible man takes the poor end of the bargain
Without quibbling.
It is sensible to make terms,
Foolish to be a stickler:
Though heaven prefer no man,
A sensible man prefers heaven.

Verse Seventy Nine
Gia-Fu Feng & Jane English, 1972

After a bitter quarrel, some resentment must remain.
What can one do about it?
Therefore the sage keeps his half of the bargain
But does not exact his due.
A man of Virtue performs his part,
But a man without Virtue requires others to fulfill their obligations.
The Tao of heaven is impartial.
It stays with good men all the time.

Verse Seventy Nine
Doadejingle, 2000

There's little good in making peace
If resentment lingers
You'll never see an end to blame
If everyone is pointing fingers

It's better to be pointing
At the peaceful and creative place
Where you see naught but emptiness
And others say they see your face


From: jimclatfelter
Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009

Compare:

the place where you see naught but emptiness
and others say they see your face

and

a sensible man prefers heaven

I think Douglas would say they are the same.

There's little good in making peace
If resentment lingers

Do you think this applies to disagreements and quibbling about headless seeing and meaning?

Jim


From: simon
Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009

Quote:
It is sensible to make terms,
Foolish to be a stickler:

I like this: non-attachment to "results"... terms do allow the end of the affair, so have their place.
As regards your question Jim, it seems to me that
"keeping one's half of the bargain, not exacting one's due..."
carries the perfume of keeping faith with the near end of the tube...
(of course, each end contains both, but words have their limitations)

Quote:
The Tao of heaven is impartial.
It stays with good men all the time.

Of course, seeing doesn't "belong" to anyone, but identification happens very fast!
One glance "back" (so to speak) and any need for confrontation disappears, no?
This verse seems to hold a key to liberation from the past...
What do others see?
simon


From: Steve Palmer
Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2009

Quote:
The Tao of heaven is impartial.
It stays with good men all the time.

The Tao of hell seems imparial too.
To the extent we are out of harmony with our surroundings we suffer.

To quote a favorite verse from the Dhammapada:

Hatred never ended with hatred
It only ever ended with Love ( non-hatred )
The Buddha

There's little good in making peace
If resentment lingers
Lao Tzu

Question: is it peace if resentment lingers.

Quote:
Do you think this applies to disagreements and quibbling about headless seeing and meaning?

We are all sensitive beings so disagreements and quibbling are bound to arise.
Whether gratitude or resentment arise, isn't maturing about seeing through the emotions which divide and separate us ?
For me this is a process, not a one off enlightenment experience but an on going letting go of ignorance.

May we all be open, relaxed and grateful.
Leaning towards harmony.
Letting go of problems
Without pushing them away.
At ease with Seeing dis-ease arise and pass.
Simple, not adding extra complications.

The above is a gentle reminder to myself.
Most needed when forgotten !!

Steve


From: jimclatfelter
Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009

Question: is it peace if resentment lingers.

It's not real peace. Real peace is only found in the place where no one and no thing are to be found. There's never real 100% peace between any two individuals.

Does anyone buy that?

Jim


From: jimclatfelter
Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009

This verse seems to hold a key to liberation from the past...

Hi Simon,

Yes, it seems like liberation from dwelling on the past and on recurring thoughts about how it was unfair. There are many verses in the book that show that nature is not fair. It's impartial and indifferent. Human beings are not favored by nature.

Though heaven prefer no man,
A sensible man prefers heaven.

These seem to be two heavens. The heaven that prefers no man is Nature. The heaven that a sensible man prefers is the heaven right here, what Douglas called Home. It's our own Nature, our original Nature. Maybe this is the two sides again. The Nature out there does not favor us. The Nature right where I am does favor each of us. Maybe bringing the two Natures together is the optimum we can do.

Jim


From: Steve Palmer
Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009

Quote: There's never real 100% peace between any two individuals.

Like an ocean wave peace may arise only to pass.
Is that not the nature of life.

Quote:
Real peace is only found in the place where no one and no thing are to be found.

There is absolutely no fixed individual at any time.
At all times there is an individual who is changing.

It's a bit woolly but the above is one way to see the individual.
Can the inward view be separated from the outward view, actually ?

I just read this quote.It's very beautiful, poetic.

As you walked on the beach the waves were enormous and they were breaking with magnificent cure and force.
You walked against the wind, and suddenly you felt there was nothing between you and the sky,
and this openess was heaven.
To be so completely open, vulnerable-to the hills, to the sea, and to man
- is the essence of meditation.

To have no resistence, to have no barriers inwardly towards anything,
to be really free,
completely,
from all the minor urges compulsions, and demands, with their little conflicts and hypocrisies,
is to walk in life with open arms.
And that evening, walking there on the wet sand,
with the seagulls around you,
you felt the extraordinary sense of open freedom
and the great beauty of love
which was not in you or outside you- but everywhere.

From " All The Marvelous Earth "

( I Thought to get colourful too : ))

Steve


From: simon
Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2009

Hi Jim and Steve and All,
Jim you say (colourfully)
Quote:
Though heaven prefer no man,
A sensible man prefers heaven.

"These seem to be two heavens. The heaven that prefers no man is Nature"
Well now, I read (past tense) this as "heaven has no preference for one (man) over another"
Though when i consider how 'man' treats nature...
As regards Home, yes!
As regards being a human being, well, to be totally frank and honest, I'm not sure that I enjoy being 'human' that much... it is a bit 3rd person, after all!
More like a sort of elasticman from tiny to huge!
Once home I'm not sure that that is a description that fits (comfortably).
Home is a freedom from "I"s and all eyes at the same time!
Think I'll re-read your post later, not sure I get what you mean...


From: jimclatfelter
Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 1

Can the inward view be separated from the outward view, actually ?

Only in the mind. One view never excludes the other, does it? You always get it all at once. In verse one Lao Tzu distinguishes names from the nameless. Names draw boundaries in the mind, not in reality. He tells us this before he tells us anything else. It's extremely important to him. He knows that we will run into trouble understanding him if we don't keep this in mind. We will not understand his words when he makes distinctions, which are only names and pointers to parts of the same reality. We will think he is making separations when he isn't.

That was a beautiful poem you posted, Steve. It puts headless seeing in a beautiful setting. I miss the beach.

Thanks,
Jim


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