Dao De Jing
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Verse Seventy Two


From: jimclatfelter
Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009

Verse Seventy Two
Arthur Waley, 1934

Never mind if the people are not intimidated by your authority.
A Mightier Authority will deal with them in the end.
Do not narrow their dwelling or harass their lives;
And for the very reason that you do not harass them,
They will cease to turn from you.
Therefore the Sage knows himself but does not show himself.
Knows his own value, but does not put himself on high.
Truly, he rejects that but takes this€.

Verse Seventy Two
Herrymon Maurer, 1985

When people don't fear force,
Greater force is on the way.
Don't meddle with their homes
Or weary them at their work.
Only when they are not wearied
Will they not weary you.
Therefore,
The sage knows himself,
But makes no show of himself.
Loves himself,
But does not exalt himself.
He rejects the outward,
Accepts the inward.

Verse Seventy Two
Bradford Hatcher, 2005

(When) the people do not heed the imposing
Then great impositions come to pass
Do not constrict the places where they live
Do not overtax their means of living
Only when there is no oppressing
Will there then be no oppression
This is how wise ones know themselves
Without displaying themselves
Love themselves
Without venerating themselves
And so dismiss That to choose This


From: jimclatfelter
Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009

"Emptiness is a favourite synonym for the Tao, which is like the space enclosed by a pot, without which it is useless, and like the still hub without which a wheel cannot turn. Taoists also describe it as the Void, the Valley, the inexhaustible and bottomless and formless Origin of all forms, the Uncarved Block, the Always-so, the Primal Simplicity, the Quietness, Darker than any Mystery. Most significant of all, it is This and not That. In other words, it is right here. It is What one really isn one's own True Nature as well as the Nature of Things.

DEH, Religions of the World, page 57-58

Most significant of all, it is This and not That.

Douglas read the Arthur Waley version. He may have actually known Arthur Waley. Maybe Richard knows if this is so.

Anyway, this is the chapter where the This and That is mentioned. It's interesting that Herrymon Maurer uses the terms inward and outward instead. Both sets of words point to the same places.

This verse also says that the seer makes no show of herself. How could she? She has Nothing to show for herself. I suppose she has Nothing to impose either, as the first lines of this verse imply. What do you think?

Jim


From: simon
Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009

"Therefore, the sage
Quote:
...Loves himself,
But does not exalt himself.

A nice distinction!
And love is close to accepting, rather than judging or preferring... at least in my book!
The "This and that" thread runs through the Upanishads, too.
("This is perfect, that is perfect; perfect comes from perfect.Take perfect from perfect, the remainder is perfect.")

I find the "inward" and "outward" works well to transmit the direction to those who understand 'seeing' language.
As regards making no show of one's self... well, well put Jim, reminds me of a headline I was thinking of using for workshops: "Nothing - for free!"
Perhaps too much of an inside joke?
How do I show off capacity? And who does it?
This verse is a nice cure for disappointment perhaps...
Quote:
Only when there is no oppressing
Will there then be no oppression

This is interesting, so where does the oppression come from...?
love to all,
Simon


From: jimclatfelter
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009

I find the "inward" and "outward" works well to transmit the direction to those who understand 'seeing' language.

Hi Simon,

The Tao Te Ching has a beautiful message to convey. This message is certainly made easy to grasp, as Lao Tzu says, by the language of seeing. So much of Lao Tzu is missed without this language. The message becomes abstract rather than real and concrete, complicated rather than simple.

I like the idea of a language of seeing, a language with visible meanings.

Jim


From: jimclatfelter
Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2009

By the way, verse 38 also ends with "leaves that and takes this." It bears repeating.

Jim


From: simon
Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009

Quote:
By the way, verse 38 also ends with "leaves that and takes this." It bears repeating.

This is rather a nice description of "remembering"... when caught in mental ramblings, that simple step back into the shade (rather than having an imaginary 'me' that hogs the light) that brings the sudden space on the shoulders, capacity for all...
It certainly does "bear repeating" in my experience!

Your point about the "language of seeing" is very neat, Jim. I like that alot: it really is a non-verbal language that goes straight to the (all-inclusive) point!
Nice one, thank you!


From: Steve Palmer
Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009

Quote:
This verse also says that the seer makes no show of herself. How could she? She has Nothing to show for herself. I suppose she has Nothing to impose either, as the first lines of this verse imply. What do you think?

Buddhist monks in the Theravadan tradition are told not to talk about the Dhamma (teachings of the Buddha ) unless asked to teach.
In other words be sensitive, do not use force.
Going against the Tao or Dhamma.

Seeing is also something you have to feel with your intuition when it's appropriate to share Seeing, verbally, with another.

but you can always be the space, face to no face, without saying a word and make no show of yourself.
No expectations just, the old saying, see and see what happens.
No-thing to impose on the world.

This nothing to show way, seems the courteous way to share : ))

Talking of sharing I found a website on The Feminine Tao.
If interested here is the link.

http://www.earlywomenmasters.net/tao/index.html

Steve


From: jimclatfelter
Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009

Thanks for that the link to The Feminine Tao. It would be nice if English had a gender neutral 3rd person singular pronoun. I can't quite get used to they for the singular, but I'm trying. I didn't use any word in the Daodejingle that refers only to a single gender. That may have been a mistake. I left out the words mother and mysterious female because I wanted complete gender neutrality, though I don't think the original author(s) did. I never claimed to be making an accurate translation.

This nothing to show way, seems the courteous way to share : ))

I like what you're saying here, Steve. I've managed to share the Seeing experiments with only a few people. Some see what the experiments point to but don't know what to make of it. They don't see that it makes all the difference. It doesn't change their perception. I shouldn't be disappointed that they don't take it as seriously as I do. As you say, I have nothing to show. People have to come to it on their own. That's why I think writing about it is valuable. All we have of the original authors of the Lao Tzu is the Tao Te Ching. It seems like enough to me. It's there if you want it.

Jim


From: ja_juan
Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009

jimclatfelter wrote:
Never mind if the people are not intimidated by your authority.
A Mightier Authority will deal with them in the end.

When people don't fear force,
Greater force is on the way.

No need to impose your "understanding" on others.
Pretty straight forward, but I feel there's something more to this verse, something along the lines of:

People can avoid truth and live all the lies they want to, but their "phoney castles" will be demolished in the end.
Insisting in not looking creates more and more pressure..


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