Dao De Jing
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Verse Sixty Eight


From: jimclatfelter
Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2009

Verse Sixty Eight
Ha Poong Kim

A good warrior is not belligerent;
A good fighter is not given to anger;
One who is good at winning does not engage the enemy;
One who is good at using others takes the lower position.
This is called the Te of non-contention;
This is called making use of the strength of others;
This is called fit to be Heaven's mate.
It is the ultimate [truth] of old.

Verse Sixty Eight
Brian Browne Walker, 1996

A good general doesn't show off his power.
A good warrior doesn't get angry.
A good conqueror doesn't attack people.
A good employer puts himself below his employees.
This is called the power of noncontention.
This is called using the strength of others.
This is called perfect emulation of heaven.

Verse Sixty Eight
Jonathan Star, 2001

The best warrior
leads without haste
fights without anger
overcomes without confrontation
He puts himself below
and brings out the highest in his men

This is the virtue of not confronting
of working with the abilities you have
of complying with the laws of Heaven

This is the ancient path that leads to perfection


From: jimclatfelter
Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2009

the Te of non-contention (or) the virtue of not confronting

This is called using the strength of others.
This is called perfect emulation of heaven.

How does this work? We don't confront, so we don't clash? We don't confront, so we don't provoke a reaction? We identify with the near side, so our actions aren't seen as threats? We stay below, so we bring out the highest in others? All of the above?

This seems to be the law of opposites again. We let others shine, while we take it all in. What do you think?

Jim


From: simon
Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2009

If you (maybe I should say "I") don't stand in the light, there is no shadow...

Yes, strikes me as the law of opposites, too!
best
simon


From: Janet
Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2009

jimclatfelter wrote:
This seems to be the law of opposites again. We let others shine, while we take it all in. What do you think?

i wonder, do others shine, BY THIS light? meaning this light gives way for others to BE. well, i don't know.

love,
janet


From: jimclatfelter
Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2009

Hi Janet,

I would say that others shine in the light of my awareness. Is that how it seems to you?

Love,
Jim


From: Janet
Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2009

jimclatfelter wrote:
I would say that others shine in the light of my awareness. Is that hoe it seems to you?

yes, thats it. your words are perfect! thanks, jim.

love,
janet


From: Steve Palmer
Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2009

Verse Sixty Eight
Brian Browne Walker, 1996

A good general doesn't show off his power.
A good warrior doesn't get angry.
A good conqueror doesn't attack people.
A good employer puts himself below his employees.
This is called the power of noncontention.
This is called using the strength of others.
This is called perfect emulation of heaven.

All 3 translations of this verse made me think of Douglas.
I didn't meet Douglas many times but this is the strong impression he made on me.

Maybe you could say the verse describes
The Tao of a Life of Seeing

Steve


From: Janet
Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2009

this comes to me:

'as above, so below'

'on earth, as it is in heaven'

love,
janet


From: jimclatfelter
Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1

Hi Steve,

I can see how this verse would remind you of Douglas. His mantra was You are the authority. Don't believe it. Test it.

That's almost beyond non-confrontation.

Jim


From: headexchange
Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2009

When you realize that you cannot prove headlessness to others, you stop trying. Instead of trying to get others to agree with you, you start listening to their different point of view. The One is Many!


From: Steve Palmer
Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2009

Hi Jim, Richard, Janet and Simon

It sounds good to me ,
non-confrontation and listening.
The wide open space has room for all.

Recently it came to me that if surrender is attention
it's also surrender to the aware space,
just letting the opposites,
the yin and yang, of life
arise and disappear with sense of gratitude and wonder.

Opening and closing seem to have a rhythm ,
even though your built open,
lack of attention does put a head back on your shoulders,
till you notice your back in the meatball !!

Meister Eckhart said something like
" If Thank You is the only prayer you say it is enough "
and Douglas use to say he was thankful for having happened.

The non-confrontational, listening openess seems to be a form of thankfulness
and trusting the creative unknown to live through you.

I would be interested to know what you do or don't do
when your qualities
aren't those described in verse 68,
maybe the opposite qualities,
and you feel in your head.

Steve


From: jimclatfelter
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 1

Hi Richard,

I like that about not trying to prove headlessness. I'm sure your recall Douglas saying "I don't so much believe it as see it." There's no need to prove or believe. People believe so many strange things. We're not being asked to believe anything. We're being ask to honestly see what is. If someone doesn't see it, well, that's just how it is. They don't see it. Our educations surely haven't prepared us for this vision.

Jim


From: Janet
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2009

Steve Palmer wrote:
The non-confrontational, listening openess seems to be a form of thankfulness
and trusting the creative unknown to live through you.

I would be interested to know what you do or don't do
when your qualities
aren't those described in verse 68,
maybe the opposite qualities,
and you feel in your head.

thats an interesting question, steve! thank you so much for asking it!
sometimes, i read these things, and it all seems very lovely for a world made of cotton candy. but, there are times that things just aren't that sweet! these things you are reading are good as general way to be, but my goodness, i'm not some sage sitting on my ass, guarded from life, (and its wide open range of experiences). AND i don't much appreciate these writers giving the idea that things are set in stone, and life unfolds according to their plan. its negligent, in that there are times surely to be angry, there are times to be bothered, and maybe some action out of that is necessary or needed. who knows.

i may have a recent story to share. maybe tomorrow...

with love,
janet


From: jimclatfelter
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2009

That's a tough question you ask, Steve. I agree with Janet. There are times to be angry, times to take sides. I admire people who takes sides€my side especially. There are things to be done, progress to be made.

I don't like being upset and angry, but these feelings and reactions are part of living. If I get angry and yell at someone, I can't feel too bad about it. We all have limits.

Seeing shows me a place of calm, where anger cannot enter. That's a resource that's always available. Seeing also shows me a world of injustice€or is it thinking that shows me that? Even if I want to oppose and take sides, I can do it better from a place of calm and peace.

I don't have much of an answer. Seeing is about seeing, not about thinking or feeling, though I'm sure it influences both.

The next verse is about war. Maybe it will help with this discussion. What about fear, anger, viloence, and all the negative emotions?

Jim


From: Steve Palmer
Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2009

Thank you Jim and Janet

I too think anger can naturally arise and be helpful at certain times.
It seems the sense of a fixed self is the opposite to headlessness, which lets all arise and pass. Headless space for all, including a sense of self , strong or weak.

Confusion seems to grow when you see only a fixed self and not the non-personnel awake aliveness of headlessness.

Maybe the Tao is pointing to knowing that you are Life and headlessness also points in that direction.
The only thing we can share, Douglas would say, is our aware no-thingness.

When you see yourself as locked in a head
or lock out from nature, the Tao,
in to separateness,
it reminds me of a zen saying.
Which went something like.

" Carrying a single drop of water, carefully guarded and covered by two hands, as you run through the driving rain and thunder storm "

Steve


From: Janet
Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2009

Steve Palmer wrote:
It seems the sense of a fixed self is the opposite to headlessness, which lets all arise and pass. Headless space for all, including a sense of self , strong or weak.

Confusion seems to grow when you see only a fixed self and not the non-personnel awake aliveness of headlessness.

hi steve,

i agree with your assessment 'a fixed self'. that is why i'm bothered with the idea that only certain actions or responses are 'headless' or 'living tao'.

anyway, you did a better job of explaining it. thank you. i usually get caught up in the feeling that comes to me after reading a 'fixed self' message that i just blurt out my dissent.

love,
janet


From: Steve Palmer
Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2009

Thanks Janet.

I also feel like blurting a reply at times !!
Steve


From: Janet
Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2009

Steve Palmer wrote:
Thanks Janet.

I also feel like blurting a reply at times !!

you are just beautiful!

love,
janet


Headless on Youtube
Click here for workshops with Richard Lang
Click here for details on the American Gathering


Click here for information on online hangouts
Click here fora free e-course
The Youniverse Explorer is now available
Click here for our online shop
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