Dao De Jing
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Verse Sixty Five


From: jimclatfelter
Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2009

Verse Sixty Five
Jonathan Star, 2001

The ancient ones were simple-hearted
and blended with the common people
They did not shine forth
They did not rule with cleverness
So the nation was blessed
Now the rulers are filled with clever ideas
and the lives of people are filled with hardship
So the nation is cursed

He who knows the play of Tao and Te
knows the nature of the universe
Tao brings forth Te from its own being
Te expands in all directions
filling every corner of the world
becoming the splendour of all creation
Yet at every moment Te seeks Tao
This is the movement that guides the universe
This is the impulse
that leads all things back home

Verse Sixty Five
Lin Yutang, 1955

The ancients who knew how to follow the Tao
Aimed not to enlighten the people.,
But to keep them ignorant.
The reason it is difficult for the people to leave in peace
Is because of too much knowledge.
Those who seek to rule a country by knowledge
Are the nation's curse.
Those who seek not to rule a country by knowledge
Are the nation's blessing.
Those who know these two (principles)
Also know the ancient standard,
And to know always the ancient standard
Is called the Mystic Virtue.
When the Mystic Virtue becomes clear, far-reaching,
And things revert back (to their source)
Then and then only emerges the Grand Harmony.

Verse Sixty Five
William Martin, 2005

The great teachers of the path
taught with humble simplicity.
No cathedrals, no books, no ado at all.
Just one person talking to another
about ordinary life.

Today the experts babble
about everything under the sun,
seeking to gather crowds
and control circumstances by their clever words.
Everyone is cheated.

We are truly blessed only
by one who teaches
from the heart.
This one reveals
the secrets of the universe:
how all forms and all beings
express the power of the Tao
by the fullness of their life,
and then return to their source.
The heart of our teaching
is to live in fullness
and return in joy.


From: jimclatfelter
Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2009

"The heart of our teaching is to live in fullness and return in joy."

Live in wholeness by returning attention to its source. Is Seeing clever? Or is it simple and ordinary?

No cathedrals, no books, no ado at all.
Just one person talking to another
about ordinary life.

Just a few experiments in perception! No doctrine or dogma or belief. Just a vision of the way of life.

This one reveals
the secrets of the universe:
how all forms and all beings
express the power of the Tao
by the fullness of their life,
and then return to their source.

Who is This one?

He who knows the play of Tao and Te
knows the nature of the universe
Tao brings forth Te from its own being
Te expands in all directions
filling every corner of the world
becoming the splendour of all creation

Tao and Te here point to the near and far side of the paper bag in the Tube experiment, the near and the far in all the experiments. I love the word pairings in the Tao Te Ching. They correspond so perfectly to the design of Seeing. In the very first chapters we decided in our discussions that these word pairings were the complementary opposites of the experiments. They represent the Grand Design of perception. Wu and wei, yin and yang, Tao and Te€Seers see them as a single presence. They're more than abstract concepts. What they represent is visible€and fulfilling!

Jim


From: jimclatfelter
Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009

Daodejingle

65.

Those of old who found the way
Could see their inner core
Was near, within, and hidden
And never at the fore

Those who think they know the truth
May press for others to concur
Far better were they present
Content to be unsure

Shy away from cleverness
Prefer the simple way instead
Then you see that present truth
Is centered in the absent head

From: simon
Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009

Quote:
Is Seeing clever? Or is it simple and ordinary?

This is a good question!
While seeing is contagious, so also is social 'fiction' (for want of a better term), and life on the human wavelength or layer can be complicated, clever etc...
And - speaking for 'me' - too much attention to 'details' can blind one to the ever-present simplicity...
Yet this utter, embarassingly obvious, simplicity is here at the "near" end... the link of Tao and Te as the near and far end of the tube is enlightening

However, this verse also brings to mind the trap of many "spiritual" systems, with their hierarchies and restrictions... some of my friends who are caught up in these cannot take seeing seriously because it is so simple, immediate and obvious...
I especially like
Quote:
Tao brings forth Te from its own being
Te expands in all directions
filling every corner of the world
becoming the splendour of all creation
Yet at every moment Te seeks Tao

That just about sums it all up!

PS: Lin Yutang's version, 4th line, is it "leave" or "live"? (both strike me as interesting!)


From: Janet
Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009

jimclatfelter wrote:
"The heart of our teaching is to live in fullness and Wu and wei, yin and yang, Tao and Te€Seers see them as a single presence. They're more than abstract concepts. What they represent is visible€and fulfilling!

yes, visible, fulfilling. and in reply to simon, simple. anyone who is willing to look can see it. years of studying cannot reveal what can be seen immediately. and i think that years of living from this and observing it, also reveals the design at its work.

its not something reserved for the highly educated. to the contrary. i would even say that THAT may be an obstacle. that is how simple it is.
love,
janet


From: jimclatfelter
Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2009

Hi Simon and Janet,

Sorry for the slow response.

There are many definitions for Te€including power, virtue, character, integrity, and others. I do think these words all refer to the far side of the Tube. I remember hearing Douglas talk about thoughts adhering to their objects. The same could be said about words like character and virtue. They may seem to be inner qualities, but they refer to actions. We know that all action takes place on the far side of the Tube. The near side (Tao) gives place for all action (Te) to take place. Tao encloses. Te discloses. I think it works.

Simon, you're right about the line in Lin Yutang's version. It should read "live in peace."

Janet, I like your point that "years of studying cannot reveal what can be seen immediately." The first sight gets it right.

Love,
Jim


From: simon
Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2009

Hi Janet 'n' Jim (& All)
Quote:
Tao encloses. Te discloses.

That is a neat way of putting it!
That moment of manifestation - brief and subtle as it is - interests me...
The moment that actions begin...
I remark that acts that flow/follow/stem from seeing have a different quality.
Anyone notice the same? or even the opposite?!
Yes Janet, study can (tho not compulsory) stem from a definate, seperate idea-of-being, and as such is more or less doomed to turn in circles... Seeing is unqualified!
The quest for Truth is no reason to ignore the immediately obvious, aftrer all...!
love to all
Simon


From: Janet
Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2009

jimclatfelter wrote:
There are many definitions for Te€including power, virtue, character, integrity, and others. I do think these words all refer to the far side of the Tube.

hi jim,

i agree that all description and labeling belongs at the far side. at the near side i find nothing. while seeing the near side and its spaciousness for everything, i feel a deep sense of peace and love. but, i would say too, that these refer to the far side. what do you think?

love,
janet


From: Janet
Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2009

simon wrote:
I remark that acts that flow/follow/stem from seeing have a different quality.
Anyone notice the same? or even the opposite?!

hi simon,

that is a good question! i notice something, but i don't know how it answers your question. what i've noticed, i'll try to explain. well, i find that i'm more relaxed in This. when action does appear, i find a quality (maybe) in the greater awareness of it. i don't know how to explain it. its like, a more alert or 'awakened' presence for the flow that is.

i find i 'resolve in the no-thing' more often. what i mean by that is, when some problems appear that cannot be resolved, i turn them over. 'i resolve in the no-thing', and that is my answer for the moment. then, problems dissolve by themselves by ceasing to exist, or some answer appears of itself. that is something that has been happening frequently, as i find myself in practice with it. frustration and overwhelming feelings are tools that lead to greater freedom from worldly troubles once you let the chips fall where they may. i have no idea what the answer is, so i have no expectation, and then its like, hey, its OKAY.

well, anyway.

love,
janet


From: jimclatfelter
Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009

Hi Simon and Janet,

To further answer your question, Simon, I don't get any feeling at all about what flows from or to the near side or the far side. I don't see either in terms of cause and effect. They are both just present simultaneously. That's why I liked that bit about:

Tao encloses; Te discloses.

I like this one too:

Tao enfolds; Te unfolds.

The two are on a parity. They are related as two sides of the visual field. And that's all. One doesn't cause the other. At least I don't see it.

Janet, you asked what I thought about words. I agree they arise out there and mostly refer to things out there, but I don't worry about words too much. Words are fine. They can point to our spaciousness and openness without being the Fact of spaciousness and openness€just like the word 'dog' points to a generalized conception of a dog. Words make us human. I appreciate them. This forum wouldn't be anything without them.

Love,
Jim


From: Janet
Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009

hi jim,

i really like these Tao and Te terms. i like that you say they are appearing simultaneously, and that you don't view cause and effect.

thats how i see it. i see no-thing and every-thing at once. the view is OPEN, to me. i don't see cause and effect. yet sometimes i think there is a reason. but, when i think there is one reason, pretty soon there are a thousand if i think about. so, i resolve it all again, Here.

love,
janet


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